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Economic Retardation (Read 68675 times)
b0b
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Economic Retardation
Jan 24
th
, 2008 at 9:39am
Since I've been posting so many articles related to the economy lately, I thought it'd be prudent to start a thread for articles focused purely on the latest retarded moves by Bernanke, the Fed, and the rest of the .gov related to our country's financial status.
Quote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080124/ap_on_go_co/economy_stimulus
WASHINGTON - House Democratic and Republican leaders are looking for imminent agreement with the White House on an emergency package to jolt the economy out of its slump after negotiators on all sides made significant concessions at a late-night bargaining session.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi agreed to drop increases in food stamp and unemployment benefits during the Wednesday meeting in exchange for gaining a rebates of at least $300 for each person earning a paycheck, including low-income earners who make too little to pay income taxes.
Families with children would receive an additional $300 per child, subject to an overall cap of perhaps $1,200, according to a senior House aide who outlined the deal on condition of anonymity in advance of formal adoption of the whole package.
Pelosi, D-Calif., and House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, had yet to reach agreement on a package of tax breaks for businesses after estimates showed a tentative business tax agreement could exceed $70 billion, far more than had been expected, the aide and a Democratic lobbyist said.
Pelosi and Boehner appeared optimistic as they left their third extended negotiating session of the day with Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson. "We'll have more to say tomorrow," Boehner said. "We're hopeful."
However, Pelosi's spokesman said another negotiating session tentatively scheduled for Thursday morning was postponed because the speaker first needed to brief fellow Democrats on the emerging but plan.
Democratic aides said greater GOP flexibility over giving relief to poor families with children — who would not have been eligible under President Bush's original tax rebate proposal — was the catalyst that moved the talks forward.
Asked whether agreement was near, Pelosi said, "We're moving toward that, but all the issues are not resolved."
The business tax portion still being negotiated would give businesses incentives to invest in plants and equipment, give small businesses more generous expensing rules and allow businesses suffering losses now to reclaim taxes previously paid. The last item on spreading operating losses was proving to be unexpectedly expensive.
Pelosi pressed to make sure tax relief would find its way into the hands of lower-income earners while Boehner pushed to include upper middle-class couples with incomes of up to $130,000 or so, according to congressional aides.
Bush backs larger rebates of $800-$1,600, but his plan would have left out 30 million working households who earn paychecks but don't make enough to pay income tax, according to calculations by the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center. An additional 19 million households would have received only partial rebates under Bush's initial proposal.
Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., said negotiators also were near an agreement on an overhaul of the Federal Housing Administration that would make it easier for thousands of homeowners with ballooning interest rates to refinance into federally insured loans. That measure might advance separately of the tax relief package, however.
Both sides agreed to allow Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — government-sponsored companies that are the two biggest U.S. financers and guarantors of home loans — to buy loans much larger than the current $417,000 limit, aides and lobbyists said. Frank said that lending cap might reach as high as $700,000 in areas with the highest home prices.
Pelosi's decision to drop expanding unemployment payments and more money for food stamps — which many lawmakers had assumed would be included in the package — could prove very controversial with Democratic constituencies such as unions, who were already stung by a decision to deny states more money for their Medicaid programs.
Many Democrats had pressed to extend unemployment benefits for people whose 26 weeks of benefits have run out, but Republicans resisted.
This whole idea of an "economic stimulus package" is pretty retarded. The government is in crazy debt, but they want to slash taxes and hand out rebates like candy? I've got a better idea. Let's slash welfare and other socialist program, pay off the debt, and
then
slash taxes. Of course, that would be a
responsible
fiscal policy, and we can't have that!
Just as a "wow" note, I heard the other day that we would have to stack $1,000 bills over 64 miles high to have enough money to pay off our debt. How sick and sad is that?
Now, a stimulus package is bad enough, but Pelosi wants to hand out tax
rebates
to people that don't even
pay
taxes! How the hell do you give someone a rebate on something they've never paid in the first place? At that point, it isn't a rebate, it's a gift - also known as wealth redistribution, also known as socialism.
Tax rebates for
anybody
while the .gov is running a ~$200 billion deficit is
retarded
. $300-$800 isn't going to fix the economy, and Bush wants to increase our deficit
another
$150 billion for tax rebates? WTF?
You guys that are single with no kids and pay in 30% of your income to the .gov will get a $300 check, but a welfare queen with three kids that hasn't paid a dime in taxes in her entire life will get $1,200. Not only is it going to further break the economy, but it's entirely unfair in all regards.
Besides, how does 10% of the population get away without paying taxes? I had to pay tax when I made $5.75 an hour in high school. I can't imagine any able-bodied person making less than that in a year!
Let's face it, Pelosi just wants to buy another 30-50 million votes. End of story.
-b0b
(...gives up.)
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spanky
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #1 - Jan 24
th
, 2008 at 11:08am
I got yelled at not too long ago about not giving money to charity for homeless people. They said that I make more than enough to live off of and I should help people who don't have that.
Well guess what. If you are able to stand, lift 20 lbs, and stay awake for 8 hours you can get a job down here if you even remotely try. I see signs for factories looking for workers everyday. There is only one reason these people are homeless, welfare.
Quote:
Besides, how does 10% of the population get away without paying taxes?
Why would illegal immigrants pay taxes?
Sad thing is it isn't just the government making these kind of great financial decisions. Through my new job I have met 3 people who all took the buyout/layoff from GM. I spoke with one guy about it. He was cut a check for 145k (before taxes) to retire early/be layed off. But when GM offered it they didn't have nearly enough people in the new work force to fill positions. So he was hired back at his old salary. In the end his pention is going to be less, but he got a 145k bonus.
Now as retarded as this sounds I hate to say Ford is thinking of doing the same thing on a massive scale (again). And it is sad that Ford and GM are headed out, but we only have the unions to thank for that.
...hmm I got off track.
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b0b
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #2 - Jan 24
th
, 2008 at 11:51am
It looks like it went through as advertised. Damn it...
Quote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080124/ap_on_go_co/economy_stimulus
WASHINGTON - Democratic and Republican congressional leaders reached a tentative deal Thursday on tax rebates of $300 to $1,200 per family and business tax cuts to jolt the slumping economy.
Congressional officials close to the negotiations said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Republican Leader John Boehner of Ohio reached agreement in principle in a telephone call Thursday morning.
The officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the two wanted key members of their parties to sign off on the accord before any announcement.
The accord came as the White House said Thursday an agreement was imminent.
Pelosi, D-Calif., agreed to drop increases in food stamp and unemployment benefits during a Wednesday meeting in exchange for gaining rebates of at least $300 for almost everyone earning a paycheck, including low-income earners who make too little to pay income taxes.
Families with children would receive an additional $300 per child, subject to an overall cap of perhaps $1,200, according to a senior House aide who outlined the deal on condition of anonymity in advance of formal adoption of the whole package. Rebates would go to people earning below a certain income cap, likely individuals earning $75,000 or less and couples with incomes of $150,000 or less.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information.
If they are just going to hand out money, why not just make it $10,000 or $100,000? That would really get the economy going.
If you pay thousands in taxes and have no kids, you get back $300. On the other hand, if you pay nothing in taxes and have three welfare babies, you receive $1200.00 in free money! Woohoo! I love how this has changed from a tax rebate to full-blown wealth distribution practically overnight.
Of course, you get really screwed if you make more than $75,000, in which case you get a whopping
nothing
! This in spite of the fact that you pay ridiculously high taxes. How the Hell is that fair? Just as an FYI...
Quote:
* The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.
* The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.
Thanks for supporting America, rich people. I hope you weren't expecting a check like the rest of us...
-b0b
(...grrs.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #3 - Jan 24
th
, 2008 at 1:28pm
With a country who's worth a good 10s of trillions of dollars...do they really expect this to "stimulate" the economy?
I also find it funny that when the Republicans give out tax refunds the Dems cry and cry. However, when the Dems want to give out free money that comes from the tax payers and "redistribute the wealth"...that's a good thing?
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #4 - Jan 24
th
, 2008 at 2:41pm
I think Bob quoted the prices wrong. Not a huge deal, but still
Quote:
Individuals who pay income taxes would get up to $600, working couples $1,200 and those couples with children an additional $300 per child under the agreement. Workers who make at least $3,000 but don't pay taxes would get $300 rebates.
Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,325192,00.html
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And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #5 - Jan 24
th
, 2008 at 2:50pm
Where did I quote the prices wrong?
-b0b
(...didn't see it.)
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b0b
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #6 - Jan 24
th
, 2008 at 3:02pm
If this rebate is similar to the 2000 rebate, it's nothing more than an advance on the normal 2007 tax refund. In other words, if you would normally get a $1,000 tax return in 2008 for 2007's taxes, but you get $300 from this "Stimulus Package," you'll get $700 next year instead.
If this is the case, I wonder what will happen to the folks that don't pay taxes? If their normal tax burden is $0, does that mean they'll owe $300 next year if they get a $300 payout this year? I'm sure Pelosi will quickly forgive that debt if that's the case.
-b0b
(...hopes a fully detailed outline is given soon.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #7 - Jan 24
th
, 2008 at 3:03pm
bob, you did it wrong, just live with it.
I can't wait to get my refund. I am going to stimulate the economy by giving it all to charity.
BAHAHAHAHA! Almost had you there.
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #8 - Jan 24
th
, 2008 at 3:25pm
Bush's plan was to eliminate the 10% tax bracket, allowing folk to get up to a max of ~$800 back. In this new plan, everyone gets 300 back, except for the rich... and those that pay income tax get 300 more.
then of course theres more if you're married or have kids. I don't know where the $300 is coming from to pay those that don't pay income tax. I haven't seen anything about this coming out of next years rebates.
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #9 - Mar 11
th
, 2008 at 9:33am
Quote:
http://www.swans.com/library/art14/mdolin31.html
by Michael Doliner
(Swans - March 10, 2008) By now most people know that the "subprime" crisis is no such thing. What has happened is the final result of the long decay of the rate of profit (1) in the American economy. As productive activity no longer paid, investors turned to interest on credit to provide sufficient rates of return. During the first part of the twenty-first century they devised new ways to lend. Bankers and mortgage brokers offered credit to just about anybody who breathed, and credit built upon credit. Mortgages were only one area in which they did this, but looking at them gives a good illustration of what is happening.
The note guaranteed by a mortgage is a promise to pay a debt, usually in monthly installments. The note provides its owner with a stream of income and he can sell the note for a lump sum. Mortgage brokers have sold the notes for a long time, but recently they have done so in new ways. Wall Street got into this game by creating new debt instruments (bonds) called Collateralized Debt Obligations (CDOs) and Structured Investment Vehicles (SIVs). They are nothing more than collections or bundles of notes (backed by mortgages) that can be sold to investors. If someone can borrow money for a lower interest rate than is on the note then he can use the borrowed money to buy many notes. Thus they built a pyramid of debt. Since Japan has been lending money at practically zero interest, this pyramid grew huge.
These Wall Street bundles looked like practically foolproof sources of income. Actuaries judged the likelihood of homeowners defaulting on their mortgages from past performance and assured everybody they were safe. Given that investors were buying large bundles of loans the likelihood of default could easily be factored into the price. The likelihood of default on riskier loans could be offset with lower prices. Wall Street divided the bundles of loans up into "tranches" with the riskiest giving the largest rewards.
But to make all this even safer Wall Street brokers bought insurance through "monoline" insurance companies whose business is to insure bonds. They insured buyers of bonds against default. These monoline insurance companies had, before this, insured primarily municipal bonds. These rarely default and the monolines had a sweet deal. But this new source of business seemed even sweeter. Because their business had been so solid up until this time these monoline companies all had Aaa ratings with Moody's, Standard & Poor's, and Fitch, the world's three ratings agencies. Their ratings transferred to the bonds they insured, making the mortgage-backed bonds AAA investments even though many of the borrowers were "subprime." With all this insurance, investors, including staid conservative banks, gobbled up these investment vehicles.
The game seemed so good that the most sophisticated investors, including banks such as Citibank and J.P. Morgan, and brokerage firms such as Bear Sterns, invested in these vehicles and encouraged their clients to do likewise. Many Hedge Funds joined them. Foreign countries jumped in. The final owners of the notes were very far away from those who originated them. Local mortgage brokers wrote the mortgages but then quickly sold them. These "account executives," who were supposed to check on the borrowers' ability and inclination to pay, had no incentive to be too careful, and were soon fired if they were. Mortgage brokers made money on the number of mortgages written, not on their quality. They were not hurt when the borrower defaulted.
All this led to an enormous increase in the amount of mortgage money available and a loosening of the standards for loans. Since mortgage brokers didn't care, people were given mortgages they couldn't possibly pay. People out of work refinanced their houses, increasing their debt but remaining afloat on the proceeds. Thus there were more buyers with more money looking to buy houses, and the prices of houses skyrocketed.
With all these questionable loans on ever inflating property values, eventually the defaults began to dribble in. And soon there were enough of them to make the owners of the CDOs and SIVs nervous. People who had money in hedge funds heavily invested in these vehicles wanted to take their money out. But when the hedge funds tried to sell the CDOs and SIVs to pay off the investors they found there was a very weak market for them. Word of the defaults had gotten around. Since these hedge funds had borrowed most of the money to buy these securities, they had to sell a lot of them to get much capital back. In July 2007, two Bear Sterns hedge funds collapsed. (2) Share prices for other funds fell off a cliff. The market for CDOs and SIVs suddenly ended. Nobody wanted to buy them, period.
The sudden end of the market for mortgage-backed bonds turned off the gusher of money that Wall Street had been pouring into mortgages. Banks now had to look at mortgages as if they were taking the risks themselves, and they became a lot more careful. In the heyday they had offered no money down mortgages and even lent more than the value of the property, allowing the new owner to emerge from the deal with money in his pocket. They had given money to people with dubious credit histories and insufficient income. No more. With more stringent guidelines and demands for larger down payments the buyer pool shrank and buyers could buy less house. A housing market geared to a large demand suddenly found it had a smaller one. Mega-builders in Florida, California, and elsewhere found that houses in their giant projects were not selling, and they stopped building. The booming real estate market ended, and prices began to fall.
With falling prices mortgage defaults increased. Those who had been refinancing their houses to pay the mortgages were stuck. Speculators who had bought houses expecting to flip them at higher prices were also stuck and wanted out fast. Adjustable rate mortgages that had been sold with ridiculously low "teaser rates" began to reset to much higher rates that the borrowers couldn't pay. They defaulted. The snowball of real estate decline began to roll.
As defaults increased, the CDOs and SIVs that banks, brokerage houses, and other clever investors still owned became less and less attractive. But these securities retained their AAA ratings because the monoline insurance companies backed them, and the monolines had Aaa ratings. When people began looking at the monolines it became obvious that they were woefully undercapitalized. Their exposure to the mortgage backed securities was something like one trillion dollars, of which about $130 billion had gone bad, (3) and their capital amounted to about $15 billion. Clearly, they should already be out of business. At least they should lose their AAA rating. But if they lost their AAA rating then the bonds they insure would also lose their AAA rating. If that happened those bonds would no longer be investment grade and the banks, because of banking regulations, would have to sell them. But there is no market for these things now. The banks would have to take huge losses, probably going bankrupt. These liabilities seem to be as large as the entire American banking system. So even though the monolines were insurance companies nobody wanted them to actually pay off on their policies, for that would put them out of business. Their AAA ratings were worth more than their cash.
But it didn't take an Einstein to see that the monolines were essentially insolvent. The ratings agencies, Moody's, Standard & Poor's, and Fitch, threatened to downgrade their ratings as a result. To avoid this, a number of "bailout plans" were floated, consisting, essentially, of banks lending money to the monolines. The ratings agencies, aware that a downgrade of the monoline ratings might bring down the whole system, reaffirmed the AAA ratings of the monolines, even though none of these bailouts could possibly cover the real liabilities, and none of them has materialized in any case. For anyone who would lend money to the monolines, essentially bankrupt businesses, would have to be crazy.
When the ratings agencies reaffirmed the monolines' bogus AAA ratings they completely discredited themselves, essentially putting themselves out of business. The ratings were so obviously fraudulent that nobody will believe them again. However, a whole new paradigm developed in which fraudulent ratings may not matter. Even though nobody believes in the monolines' AAA ratings they serve their purpose anyway. For the banking regulations specify AAA ratings for investment backed securities and say nothing about the plausibility of these ratings. The mortgage backed securities will retain their "investment grade" rating as long as the monolines retain their AAA ratings, no matter how obviously bogus. The stock market has caught onto the game. When news of a bailout appeared the market rallied, even though these clever traders could not have helped knowing that the bailout would never happen and was, in any case, insufficient. They knew the drama was a farce. They simply agreed en mass to play along. The alternative was a collapse of the whole system.
The American economy now depends upon all the players going along with good news they all know is bogus. Nobody wants the entire system to fail, so they play along with the game. Although the mortgage backed securities are nearly worthless, nobody wants to find out just how worthless they are. So nobody puts them on the market and nobody tries to collect on the monoline insurance. To shore up the monolines' bogus AAA rating the banks float news of bogus bailout plans no one is likely to put into practice unless he is a complete idiot. The ratings agencies take these obviously bogus bailout plans at face value, ignore the fact that even if they were to be implemented they would be woefully inadequate, and reaffirm the monolines' bogus Aaa ratings. So everyone pretends that these mortgage-backed securities, sometimes inadvertently called toxic sludge, are still valuable. Stockbrokers go along with the game by pretending these bailout plans are really good news even though they know they are bogus, and they bid up stocks. As long as this continues the banks and brokerage houses can keep these securities off their balance sheets and in hedge funds. Since everyone's exposure is hidden nobody knows who is holding these worthless securities and is thus essentially broke, so nobody wants to lend any money to anybody.
So much for credit as a source of profit. The whole credit system is frozen up. It is like someone holding his breath. How long can he go on? Who knows, but not long. At the bottom of the whole pile the lowly mortgage payer is still having his problems. Defaults and foreclosures are increasing dramatically, and housing prices are declining. The credit freeze is accelerating the decline. This has produced something new. Many homeowners are discovering that their houses are worth far less than they owe on them. "Not since the Depression has a larger share of Americans owed more on their homes than they are worth. With the collapse of the housing boom, nearly 8.8 million homeowners, or 10.3 percent of the total, are underwater. That is more than double the percentage just a year ago, according to a new estimate of the damage by Moody's Economy.com." (4) Thus even though they might be able to pay the mortgage, they find no real inclination to do so. Whereas people used to feel morally obligated to pay debts they had contracted for, they no longer do. A new Web site shows them how to walk away without any liability. (5) As these people walk away, prices will fall still further. The idea that paying one's debts is essential to an upright and honorable life seems no longer current. The old threat of damage to one's credit rating no longer seems so scary. Homeownership, now that prices are falling, no longer seems so attractive. Renting is looking good. The whole idea of homeownership as a source of security seems to have vanished. Credit card defaults and car loan defaults are rising almost as fast as mortgage defaults. To repay or not to repay is now seen as a purely business, rather than a moral, decision. This pulls out the supports from all the mathematical models upon which the system is based.
The really fun news is that this is only the tip of the iceberg. "Credit default swaps" can be thought of as freelance monoline insurance on any kind of debt obligation. But unlike with monoline insurance, nobody knows who is obligated to pay or whether he is able to do so. It is estimated that there are about $43 trillion in credit default swaps. (6)
With frozen credit markets, capitalism has come to an end. Making things doesn't pay, and now you can't lend money to make money. What is a capitalist -- excuse me, entrepreneur, going to do? Naturally he will look to the Fed for a rescue. Free markets are fine and dandy unless I need a bailout. The Fed has the right to print money and lend it to banks. Great business if you can get it. The Fed, to unclog the arteries of the credit system, lowers its interest rate. But to whom are you going to lend money? Nobody knows which banks are already bankrupt, and now even the little guy is no longer finding his obligation to pay all that much of an obligation. In the end the whole credit system depends upon the social convention that debts ought to be repaid, and this social convention seems to be dissolving. When people begin walking away, lower interest rates are not going to help.
Meanwhile everybody is edging towards the exits. Every investor would like to get out without anyone else noticing that he has left. Once it becomes obvious that everyone wants out the rush to the exits will keep everyone from leaving.
I thought this article was pretty decent at summarizing the current credit crisis. It'll be interesting to see what the future holds.
-b0b
(...recession?)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #10 - Mar 17
th
, 2008 at 9:01am
The Asian markets are getting the crap beat out of them right now.
The Nikkei dropped 1,193 points in the first 11 minutes of trading.
MSNBC is reporting that the Bank of Indonesia is selling off the US dollar.
Oil is at $111.09.
The Dollar Index (USDX) is down to 70.72.
DOW Futures are down -284 on Bloomberg.
I bet the DOW is going to plummet this morning. If you've got any investments, be sure to hold on to your hats!
-b0b
(...puts on his crash helmet.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #11 - Mar 17
th
, 2008 at 9:18am
Don't worry, I have all my money invested in MacGyver collectible plates!
Lets hope those don't drop in value...
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Reply #12 - Mar 17
th
, 2008 at 10:15am
They never will...and if you ever need to make an escape device if your apartment is on fire, they will double as safety devices/nuclear weapons.
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #13 - Mar 17
th
, 2008 at 11:43am
Don't forget the paper clip and duct tape!
-b0b
(...vital accessories for pwnage.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #14 - Mar 17
th
, 2008 at 12:24pm
speaking of pwnage, I saw a license plate that said IPWNJOO and I weeped for humanity.
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #15 - Mar 17
th
, 2008 at 12:52pm
Quote:
2:05 ET Dow -125.70 at 11824.66, Nasdaq -42.36 at 2170.13, S&P -31.21 at 1264.22:
[BRIEFING.COM] The major indices are trading sharply lower at midday on news that a major Wall Street collapsed and is being bought at a firesale price.
Market participants was shocked to find out that JP Morgan Chase (JPM 39.44, +2.90) was buying Bear Stearns (BSC 3.94, -26.06) for what is equivalent to $2 per share, or $240 million. This equates to a 93% discount from Friday's closing price. The Fed will providing up to $30 billion dollars in funding to back Bear's less liquid assets. Although the $2 offer seems low, the other option for Bear is bankruptcy.
Last week there were rumors that Bear was facing liquidity issues. In turn, this caused a large amount of withdrawals at Bear, which spurred the firm's collapse. Bear's stock has plummeted 87% and is down 98% from its all-time high.
Meanwhile, in an emergency meeting, the Fed cut the discount by 25 basis points to 3.25% on Sunday. The discount rate is the interest rate at which eligible banks can borrow money directly from the Fed.
In an additional move to increase liquidity, effective today, the Fed created a new lending facility that will provide financing to participants in the securitization markets, such as investment banks.
These developments have created new fears of what may be in store for other financial institutions. National City Corp. (NCC 8.80, -4.35) is down 33%, Cit Group (CIT 11.50, -3.73) has lost 24%, Lehman Brothers (LEH 28.90, -10.36) has slipped 26% and Washington Mutual (WM 9.06, -1.53) has given up 14%.
Al of the ten sectors are trending lower. Not surprisingly, financials are the main laggards with a 3.8% loss. The energy sector (-3.4%) is also showing weakness as oil slips 3.0%.
JP Morgan bought Bear Stearns for about 2% of the price they closed at on Friday afternoon, which was steeply down anyway due to the credit crisis. The Fed offered to support up to $30bn in future losses related to the transaction.
The Fed had to violate their own rules to make the deal, since they are normally prevented from loaning money to anyone except federal banks. That scares me a bit.
-b0b
(...cheers at lower interest rates, though!)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #16 - Mar 17
th
, 2008 at 3:57pm
Here are some scary charts. The first one shows the value of the dollar...
The second chart is even scarier. This shows the amount of capital held by US banks that isn't borrowed. As you can see, it has gone straight off a cliff...
-b0b
(...thinks it's a great time to buy investments.)
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Reply #17 - Mar 17
th
, 2008 at 4:04pm
I doubt either of those charts takes into account inflation either. The dollar is probably half of what the first chart says...if that.
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Reply #18 - Mar 17
th
, 2008 at 4:30pm
Oops, fixed the images in my last post. Here's another one from the Wall Street Journal.
-b0b
(...Chicken Little!)
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Reply #19 - Mar 17
th
, 2008 at 5:26pm
Dude that is major!
When the crap would all this hit the fan? The fact that US owes so much money, and US banks owe so much money cant mean that things are going to be good for much longer eh?
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Reply #20 - Mar 17
th
, 2008 at 5:56pm
All China has to do is find another big consumer of their lead tainted products and then call in their markers...bam...a depression that would make the 30s look like the 20s.
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Reply #21 - Mar 18
th
, 2008 at 2:13pm
Saw on msn that china might have to shut down a bunch of its power plants and factories to reduce the air polution there for the olympics.
Take that nonfailing economy!
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Reply #22 - Mar 18
th
, 2008 at 3:34pm
Rumor has it that Beijing will shut down car traffic outside of government and Olympic-related driving for the Olympics.
Some guy on AR15.com is in Beijing right now and posted a ton of pictures of the city. It's really quite beautiful, but the smog is absolutely unbelievable.
If I find the post again, I'll tack it here.
-b0b
(...should have bookmarked it.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #23 - Mar 18
th
, 2008 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Fed Cuts Key Interest Rate by 3/4 of a Point
By EDMUND L. ANDREWS
Published: March 18, 2008
WASHINGTON — The Federal Reserve reduced its benchmark interest rate by three-quarters of a percentage point on Tuesday, to 2.25 percent, a cut that was less than investors had been hoping for even though it was one of the deepest in Fed history.
While leaving the door open for additional rate cuts, policy makers also expressed growing concern about inflation. “Uncertainty about the inflation outlook has increased,” the central bank said. “It will be necessary to continue to monitor inflation developments carefully.”
The statement highlighted the growing problem that the Fed faces, between fighting an economic downturn and heading off new inflationary pressures that have become apparent in everything from energy and food prices to the falling value of the dollar.
In a sign of the difficult choices the Fed faces, 2 of the 10 members of the policy-making Federal Open Market Committee dissented from the decision, favoring a smaller rate cut.
The two dissenters in Tuesday’s decision were Richard W. Fisher, president of the Dallas Fed, and Charles I. Plosser, president of the Philadelphia Fed, both of whom have been outspokenly hawkish about inflation issues in recent months.
The Fed’s announcement was the culmination of an extraordinary series of actions over the last two weeks to prop up financial markets and the economy with a flood of cheaper money.
The Federal Reserve has reduced its overnight lending rate, the federal funds rate, six times since September, and did so twice in January alone.
With the latest reduction, the federal funds rate is far below the rate of inflation, meaning that the “real,” or inflation-adjusted, rate is below zero. It is also well below the European Central Bank’s benchmark interest rate of 4 percent or the Bank of England’s rate of 5.25 percent.
Investors had already assumed that the central bank would reduce the cost of borrowing by at least another three-quarters of a percent on Tuesday, but mounting worries about a meltdown in financial markets and the Fed’s emergence as lender of last resort had elevated expectations even higher.
Indeed, expectations about another deep cut in interest rates were so high that the central bank was at risk of setting off a new wave of panicky selling if it had announced a reduction of less than three-quarters of a percentage point.
A lower federal funds usually leads to lower interest rates for mortgages, consumer loans and commercial borrowing.
But Fed officials had been startled and frustrated that their previous rate reductions were doing nothing to lower the long-term interest rates that are most relevant for expanding a business or buying homes or cars.
Part of the reason, analysts said, is that lower overnight interest rates have only limited relevance to the fundamental problem that is roiling the credit markets and the economy: the huge losses caused by the collapse of the housing bubble and the home loan environment that fed it.
Most analysts predict that housing prices, which have already fallen in most parts of the country, will drop much further before they hit bottom.
About eight million homeowners already owe more on their mortgage than their houses are currently worth, and foreclosure rates have soared over the last year.
The Fed’s problem is that its primary tools for stimulating growth — reductions in the cost of borrowing — do little to address the fears about bad loans. Many if not most private forecasters have concluded that the United States has probably entered a recession. The Labor Department has reported back-to-back declines in payroll employment in January and February.
And while the unemployment rate is still low at 4.8 percent, the number of private-sector jobs has declined for three months in a row — a pattern that has almost always been accompanied by a recession in recent decades.
With financial markets becoming dysfunctional, Fed officials have announced a series of steadily bigger lending programs for banks and cash-strapped Wall Street investment firms.
On Sunday, Fed officials agreed to lend up to $30 billion to JPMorgan Chase to engineer its takeover of Bear Stearns, a major Wall Street firm that was near collapse.
But Fed officials face increasingly contradictory pressures: inflation is rising even though growth has stalled.
The federal funds rate is once again edging close to zero, at which point the central bank would have to resort to entirely new strategies if it wants to keep opening its monetary spigots.
But a growing number of economists, including some Fed officials, contend that the housing bubble and bust stemmed at least in part from the central bank’s own decision to keep interest rates at rock-bottom lows from 2001 to the middle of 2004.
Meanwhile, consumer prices, even after excluding the volatile prices of food and energy, are climbing faster than the central bank’s unofficial target of less than 2 percent a year. On Tuesday, the Labor Department said the core measure of the producer price index, which excludes volatile energy and food products, jumped 0.5 percent in February, the biggest gain since November 2006.
The value of the dollar has plunged against most major currencies, a trend that pushes up the prices of imported goods and has contributed to the surging price of oil.
I was really hoping they would cut the rate by a full point. I hate to see the dollar get trashed any more than it already has, but the rate cut is really handy for those in the housing market (like me!).
-b0b
(...hopes mortgage rates drop by at least 50 basis points next week.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #24 - Mar 18
th
, 2008 at 4:12pm
Hmm... didn't really consider that. I wasn't planning on getting a house for another 2 years but...
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #25 - Mar 18
th
, 2008 at 4:36pm
In all seriousness,
now
is the time to buy. Assuming the economy doesn't completely crash and burn, it's very possible we'll never see a 2.25% fed funds rate again in our lifetimes.
The national average for a 15-year mortgage is 5.09%, and that's doesn't reflect the 0.25% drop from Sunday or the 0.75% drop from today. In another week or so, I bet the 15-year mortgage rate will be around 4.5% and the 30-year rate will be around 5.10%, both of which are ridiculously low.
On top of that, you have an unbelievable amount of inventory on the housing market to choose from. You can set up your wish list of goodies (big kitchen, multiple bathrooms, pool, etc) and find fifty house that matches your exact needs.
Of course, the best part is that houses are dirt cheap right now. Meredith and I found a $70,000 house that we wanted to "lowball" for $60,000, but the house dropped to $60,000 before we could put a bid in. It originally listed at $90,000!
I'm guessing housing prices will be a fair amount higher where you're at, but you still can't beat this market. It's an incredible time to be a buyer!
-b0b
(...thinks buyer's markets rock.)
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Reply #26 - Jun 27
th
, 2008 at 12:06pm
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
-b0b
(...hold on to your hats, boys and girls!)
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Reply #27 - Jun 27
th
, 2008 at 4:22pm
Good thing I am throwing all my money into my car. Could have lost it otherwise!
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Reply #28 - Jun 27
th
, 2008 at 4:59pm
Yanno, at the moment, that might actually not be such a bad idea.
I've lost my butt on a couple investments over the past six months, namely Thornburg Mortgage (TMA). I bought in at $1.50 because surely they weren't going to sink any further, right? They are trading at $0.25 today. Ouch.
-b0b
(...should invest in a 5.9 instead.)
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Reply #29 - Jun 27
th
, 2008 at 5:01pm
You shoud invest in a V8 car...not a jeep. You will have more fun in the car, trust me.
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Reply #30 - Jun 27
th
, 2008 at 5:03pm
spanky wrote
on Jun 27
th
, 2008 at 5:01pm:
You shoud invest in a V8 car...not a jeep. You will have more fun in the car, trust me.
First, have I ever told you you're a post whore?
And second, I'd like to be able to get to work in July
and
December in my V8. I'd like to see you conquer Shimmel Road after a blizzard with your Mustang!
-b0b
(...wants both, actually.)
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Reply #31 - Jun 27
th
, 2008 at 5:07pm
Does it count if it is just the 5.0L ... in the ranger?
Bob! Did you leave work already?? Slacker!
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Reply #32 - Jun 27
th
, 2008 at 5:57pm
Dude, it's
Friday
. Working past 5:00pm is a
SIN
.
-b0b
(...is sure he heard that once.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #33 - Jul 8
th
, 2008 at 8:17pm
Quote:
July 4 (Bloomberg) -- Mattel Inc., helped by rising sales of Matchbox and Hot Wheels toy cars, has a larger market value than General Motors Corp. for the first time as record U.S. gasoline prices crimp sales of real cars and trucks.
GM shares fell to the lowest since 1954 this week after an analyst said bankruptcy was ``not impossible'' if the auto market continues to deteriorate. GM's U.S. unit sales fell 18 percent in June. The chart of the day shows a comparison of the change in market value for Mattel and GM.
Mattel is surpassing GM even after the toymaker reported its first quarterly loss in almost three years in April, a reflection of the diverging outlook for the two companies. Mattel may return to profitability after the first quarter, while GM will probably report losses through 2009 as buyers spurn pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles, analysts said.
``Hot Wheels and Matchbox are basic, low-priced toys, so they appeal to consumers, in the U.S. and especially in less affluent countries, who may not be able to afford more expensive toys,'' Sean McGowan, a toy analyst at Needham & Co. in New York, said yesterday in an e-mail. He recommends buying Mattel shares.
GM, the world's largest automaker, rose 14 cents, or 1.4 percent, to $10.12 in New York Stock Exchange composite trading yesterday after a JP Morgan & Chase Co. analyst said GM has ``tough but manageable'' liquidity options. Mattel rose 8 cents to $17.22.
Mattel briefly passed Detroit-based GM in market value for the first time June 26 and regained its lead July 2. El Segundo, California-based Mattel is the world's biggest toymaker.
Wow! If that isn't a sign of the times, I don't know what is!
-b0b
(...scary!)
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Reply #34 - Jul 9
th
, 2008 at 1:30pm
Well I do feel sorry for them...but american car companies are making some seriously retarded moves.
Like the 2010 mustang. Ford had a choice of the special edition being a boss with a 6.2L V8 with 425hp and 450tq...or a much slower SVO ecotech 4 cylinder with almost 300hp and 270tq. With estimates putting the 4 cylinder at
4
more mpg that is what they chose. Way to kill the
only
car you have been selling. There is a reason the SVO bombed in the early 1980's...
Sorry for the rant, these companies are starting to really piss me off. And before I get the "lulz hondas rox my sox" on july 5th I went to the strip again and a total of 5 civics had to be towed away. Yeah, that's quality for you.
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Reply #35 - Jul 9
th
, 2008 at 2:05pm
lulz hondas rox my sox
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Reply #36 - Jul 9
th
, 2008 at 2:24pm
lulz hondas rox my sox
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Reply #37 - Jul 9
th
, 2008 at 6:23pm
I hate you all...except wes' mom.
Half price wednesday?!
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Reply #38 - Jul 10
th
, 2008 at 8:25am
That's almost as good as
Two-For-One Tuesday
.
-b0b
(...cheers!)
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Reply #39 - Jul 11
th
, 2008 at 1:07am
Every time I see this thread pop up I think about the politically correct language I'm being taught to use to refer to people with disabilities and want to say something in response...
...but then I stop myself and realize that, in context, it's being used perfectly. It always makes me smile. =)
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Reply #40 - Jul 11
th
, 2008 at 9:00am
I always get hit whenever I use the word "retard" around a certain friend. It doesn't deter me.
Virtually every slander in the book was at one time a legitimate and accepted reference to one thing or another. For what its worth, the word "idiot" used to be the accepted phrase used to refer to developmentally handicapped individuals. It's a fairly common slander today, and nobody thinks twice about using it to refer to an undesirable element. Why should "retard" be any different?
Like most languages, English is constantly evolving. Just pick up a KJV bible. Not only do we add new words to our repertoire on a regular basis, but we also stop using certain words or phrases. Other words continue to be used, but their meaning can change considerably. Words like "retard," "perfect," and "sucks" are all great examples of this.
-b0b
(...tubular!)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #41 - Jul 11
th
, 2008 at 10:15am
spanky wrote
on Jul 9
th
, 2008 at 6:23pm:
I hate you all...except wes' mom.
Half price wednesday?!
I havent been on this forum in like a year, and you sons of bitches are still burning my Mom?
One day you will all pay for this, no one crosses the Fat Man and gets away with it for long sirs.
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Reply #42 - Jul 11
th
, 2008 at 10:23am
It just wouldn't be the same without the constant innuendo about your mom.
It's even better now that we have a risqué picture of her.
-b0b
(...printed and framed it.)
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Reply #43 - Jul 11
th
, 2008 at 10:48am
Still a douche I see b0b. Glad things never change. Does your misses know your infatuation with sleeping with my mom jokes? hmmmm
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Reply #44 - Jul 11
th
, 2008 at 10:53am
Yeah, but I sleep with her mom too, so it all equals out in the end.
-b0b
(...is a bit of a manwhore.)
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Reply #45 - Jul 11
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, 2008 at 10:58am
No bob, whores get paid...you're just a hussy.
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Reply #46 - Jul 11
th
, 2008 at 11:02am
Call it what you will. I'm still the one that's getting some.
-b0b
(...can't be choosy.)
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Reply #47 - Jul 11
th
, 2008 at 12:08pm
*tear* It's like we got the band back together!
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In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. - Max Payne
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Reply #48 - Jul 11
th
, 2008 at 1:15pm
Uh oh! Every reunion tour eventually goes down in flames!
-b0b
(...wonders when he is going to get those Britney Spears tickets from Wally?)
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Reply #49 - Jul 11
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, 2008 at 1:27pm
I will join the tour!
...As soon as I get out of rehab.
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Reply #50 - Oct 24
th
, 2008 at 8:47am
Quote:
U.S. stock futures blasted after Asia plunge
Futures can't go any lower
By Steve Goldstein, MarketWatch
Last update: 8:16 a.m. EDT Oct. 24, 2008
LONDON (MarketWatch) -- U.S. stock futures pointed to another monumental beating on Friday - with leading contracts falling as much as rules allow -- as a plunge in Asia reignited concerns about the health of the global economy.
S&P 500 futures dropped 60 points to 855.20 and Nasdaq 100 futures fell 85 points to 1,168.50. Dow industrial futures fell 550 points. All three contracts fell so much that they reached pre-specified limits that can't be broken until pit trading opens.
Thursday's session for U.S. stocks was erratic but generally positive, with the Dow Jones Industrial Average closing 172 points higher and the S&P 500 rising 11 points, though the Nasdaq Composite slipped 11 points. But that wasn't the case in Asia, where the Nikkei 225 tumbled 9.6% in Tokyo as Japanese traders got their first chance to react to Sony's profit warning, and the Kospi plunged 10.6% in South Korea. Europe stocks also were crushed, with the Dow Jones Stoxx 600 losing 7.4%.
"Everyone is staring at their screens in disbelief," said Tom Hougaard, a strategist at City Index in London. "It is tough to reverse the direction on a Friday. It will depend on how much forced selling pressure we see," added Marc Pado, a strategist at Cantor Fitzgerald. Profit warnings came from international firms like Samsung Electronics, Air France-KLM, Volvo and PSA Peugeot Citroen.
The losses also came as the Korea economy grew at its weakest pace in four years during the third quarter, and Britain's economy contracted a worse-than-forecast 0.5% during the third quarter. The dollar plunged against the low-yielding Japanese yen, falling nearly 6% to 92.35 yen. The British pound plunged against the dollar.
Denmark hiked the rates on its certificates of deposits by a half point to protect its currency, a move similar to the one Hungary took earlier this week. The U.S. economic calendar is on the light side, with existing home sales for September due for release shortly after the open.
Oil futures fell $4.76 to $63.08 a barrel as OPEC cut production by 1.5 million barrels of oil a day.
GM shares dropped 13%, with traders citing concerns about the automaker's health. A General Motors spokesman said the automaker was not filing for bankruptcy. Apple fell 7%. HSBC Holdings, one of the lenders that's emerged relatively unscathed by the credit crisis, tumbled 15%.
Microsoft fell 6.1% after it cut its forecasts late Thursday, though the lowered earnings outlook wasn't steep. For its current quarter ending in December, Microsoft said it expects earnings between 51 cents and 53 cents a share, and between $17.3 billion and $17.8 billion in revenue. Analysts have been estimating the company would post earnings of 55 cents a share in the period and $17.9 billion in revenue.
Please securely fasten your seatbelts, lean forward and place your head between your knees. We will give you further instructions as warranted. Thank you for your cooperation.
As one MarketWatch reader so eloquently put it...
Quote:
This is a global, systemic crisis that is spiraling out of control day by day. In spite of every financial trick known to man, they can't plug the dike. Why? Because, as it was so famously stated, a market crash is not the destruction of capital, but the recognition of capital previously destroyed through misallocation of assets. We've seen the world's largest bubble collapse. This is not a normal market cycle. There is a panic rush for cash and safety of any kind right now.
Good luck, all. Don't forget to order your heirloom vegetable seeds (non hybrid so you can't replant year after year from the produce). We'll need those victory gardens soon.
It was a fun ride, eh?
-b0b
(...weeeeeeeeeee!)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #51 - Dec 22
nd
, 2008 at 12:22pm
Quote:
We're All Madoff - This is an uncomfortable reality, but it is reality"
By Karl Denninger
"Mr. Madoff stands accused of (in his own words) running "a Ponzi Scheme."
In fact, our entire economy over the last ten years, and really back to at least 1987, has been roughly equivalent to what Mr. Madoff was doing.
So has our government.
Let's go down the list of things that have been inflated beyond their natural boundaries, and look at how each and every one of them was destined to collapse--and why they're all collapsing at once:
The Internet Bubble
While there were companies that made a real pre-tax operating profit (and a real net profit), mine included, the vast majority of the firms in the Internet space did no such thing. They reported "pro-forma" earnings, used EBIDTA (that's earnings before interest, depreciation, taxation and amortization, as if none of those things count) while levering up (meaning: interest was going to continue to rise!) as their primary profit gauge, and in fact operated with leverage ratios (total assets deployed to tangible equity - that is, value) that were in the stratosphere.
In short they borrowed to pay back their previous loans and make payroll, and when the lenders (which were in some cases equipment manufacturers) realized that they'd been had, the entire house of cards came tumbling down.
The Housing Bubble
Homes, as a place to live, must be able to be purchased for a reasonable percentage of one's income. What's "reasonable"? History says that this is 28% of your pretax income for all your direct household expenses (principal, interest, taxes and insurance plus mandatory spending such as utilities and a maintenance reserve) and 36% of your pretax income for all debt service including household and other. Note that at the "maximum leverage" that is sustainable you have only 8% of your pretax income available for "other debt service"; how many people can meet that? Think folks - if you have a $100,000 income, this means you have only eight thousand dollars for all payments on other debt. Two modest car loans and their insurance will exceed this limit for someone who makes $100,000 - and we're talking Ford's here (small sedans too, not SUVs), not Benz's or Lexii.
As these ratios were exceeded in order to remain "affordable" increasingly exotic terms were required, starting back in 2001 when the car makers were cajoled by the Bush Administration to put forward their "Drive America" program with zero-percent interest for three years. As this crept further and further into our economy mortgage programs that were in fact not mortgages (as there was absolutely no possibility of the borrower paying them off on the original terms) were pushed in order to keep property values climbing. In 2007 the limit of this insanity was reached, the "last sucker" was found, and the pyramid collapsed as these so-called "mortgages" were exposed for what they really were - a serial-refinancing scheme designed to strip equity and transfer it to the bankers. The entire scheme collapsed and along with it our markets and economy.
The Stock and Credit Markets Generally
The Internet Bubble and Housing Bubble were the externally-visible symptoms of what was going on behind the scenes. The S&P 500 was posting "earnings" of more than $100 a share, but those "earnings" were a phantom. "Private Equity" and "Hedge Funds" were buying companies and essentially flipping them using debt backed by bank credit that was, like in the housing and Internet markets, backed by nothing other than vapor.
Commercial Real Estate deals were being done at "cap rates" that were unbelievably optimistic, essentially not even paying the interest due, banking on the ability to roll the debt as "property values never go down." Anyone remember "M&A Monday" on CNBC through all of 2006 and the spring and summer of 2007? What was that all about, if not flipping companies like speculators flipped houses?
Our Government's Finances
We put into place Social Security and Medicare, two schemes that have accumulated fifty three trillion dollars in forward liabilities with zero in assets behind them. These liabilities are growing at a rate several times that of GDP. Then, as if this wasn't enough, we passed "Medicare Part D" which has now added even more to the liability side of the balance sheet but which was and is totally unfunded by assets. This both can and will collapse just as did the Housing and Internet bubbles. Our government has been spending money it doesn't (and never will) have for a very long time, but we have now entered the phase (just like the Internet and Housing Bubbles) where debt is increasing at an exponential rate compared to assets.
We have, in the last year, nearly doubled the outstanding public debt commitments on the United States ($8 trillion added against a $10 trillion base), with the previous $10 trillion itself having doubled from $5 trillion in the space of just a bit more than a decade.
There are many who say that our government debt-bubble will not collapse, and they list a whole host of reasons.
Why would you believe that?
Can you show, through history, one speculative bubble that has not popped?
Can you find one time - just once - that such a bubble was able to be grown without limit?
Simply put: No.
I thought this was an excellent article, and it does a great job of summarizing and explaining some of the craziness that is roiling the markets right now. You can read the rest of the article
here
.
-b0b
(...found it highly informative.)
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Reply #52 - Dec 22
nd
, 2008 at 2:19pm
Epic read.
This line I found particularly poetic.
Quote:
Money is in fact production; you gain it only three ways - by growing something, mining something or making something. That is, by producing a thing (whether it be a car, apples, a barrel of oil or software) that did not exist before. In the most-basic of terms, all money ultimately comes from the energy imparted upon the earth by the Sun.
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #53 - Dec 22
nd
, 2008 at 2:27pm
So true. When I got to that line, I really had to stop and think for a minute. It's incredibly mind-boggling how even our most advanced economic practices and theories all come right back to what God has given us.
-b0b
(...the "single spoken sentence.")
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #54 - Jan 3
rd
, 2009 at 1:04pm
Quote:
FOX Business Network has filed a lawsuit against the United States Treasury Department over failure to provide information on the bailout funds or respond to FBN’s expedited requests filed under the Freedom of Information Act [FOIA].
The initial request, filed on November 25, sought actual data on the use of the bailout funds for American International Group and the Bank of New York Mellon, and an additional request, filed on December 1, sought similar data on the bailout funds for Citigroup, Inc. FBN is asking for the Treasury Department to identify, among other issues, the troubled assets purchased, any collateral extended, and any restrictions placed on these financial institutions for their participation in this program.
Kevin Magee, Executive Vice President, FOX News commented, “The Treasury has repeatedly ignored our requests for information on how the government is allocating money to these troubled institutions. In a critical time like this amidst mounting corruptions and an economic crisis, we as a news organization feel it’s more important than ever to hold the government accountable.”
Steven Mintz, Esq. of Mintz & Gold LLP, and legal counsel for the network added, “Despite the several requests for expedited information filed by FBN, it has become apparent that the Treasury will not cooperate without mounting legal pressure. Therefore, we have filed a complaint in the Federal Court in New York and ask the Court to make the Treasury provide the information sought by the journalists at FBN.”
I wonder if this will go anywhere? I can't believe congress isn't raking Paulson and Bernanke over the coals for the lack of transparency in this
socialist takeover
"bailout."
I'd love to see the Treasury describe this as a matter of national security to avoid the FoIA disclosure requirements.
-b0b
(...wants to dropkick all of them in the nuts.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #55 - Jan 25
th
, 2009 at 9:16am
I just wanted to share this lovely little chart with you guys. This is the number of dollars circulating right now. Does anybody else see a scary trend?
-b0b
(...unsustainable in any market!)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #56 - Jan 25
th
, 2009 at 12:21pm
b0b wrote
on Dec 22
nd
, 2008 at 2:27pm:
So true. When I got to that line, I really had to stop and think for a minute. It's incredibly mind-boggling how even our most advanced economic practices and theories all come right back to what God has given us.
-b0b
(...the "single spoken sentence.")
Oh please, money comes from the Sun? What kind of hippie ass religious nonsense is that article even about.
The ignorance of people is fucking mind boggling sometimes. I weep for this world and its population of sheep.
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #57 - Jan 25
th
, 2009 at 12:26pm
The_Fat_Man wrote
on Jan 25
th
, 2009 at 12:21pm:
b0b wrote
on Dec 22
nd
, 2008 at 2:27pm:
So true. When I got to that line, I really had to stop and think for a minute. It's incredibly mind-boggling how even our most advanced economic practices and theories all come right back to what God has given us.
-b0b
(...the "single spoken sentence.")
Oh please, money comes from the Sun? What kind of hippie ass religious nonsense is that article even about.
The ignorance of people is fucking mind boggling sometimes. I weep for this world and its population of sheep.
Somebody put their angry pants on this morning. Why don't you tell us how you really feel?
-b0b
(...roffles.)
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Reply #58 - Jan 25
th
, 2009 at 2:21pm
Religious nonsense always puts my angry pants on.
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Reply #59 - Jan 25
th
, 2009 at 9:40pm
Someone didn't read the article..
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #60 - Jan 26
th
, 2009 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Report: Rescued Citigroup Shelling Out $50M for Corporate Jet
Monday, January 26, 2009
Beleaguered Citigroup is upgrading its mile-high club with a brand-new $50 million corporate jet -- only this time, it's the taxpayers who are getting screwed.
Even though the bank's stock is as cheap as a gallon of gas and it's burning through a $45 billion taxpayer-funded rescue, the Citigroup's execs pushed through the purchase of a new Dassault Falcon 7X, according to a source familiar with the deal.
The French-made luxury jet seats up to 12 in a plush interior with leather seats, sofas and a customizable entertainment center, according to Dassault's sales literature. It can cruise 5,950 miles before refueling and has a top speed of 559 mph.
There are just nine of these top-of-the-line models in the United States, with Dassault's European factory churning out three to four 7Xs a month.
Citigroup decided to get its new wings two years ago, when the financial-services giant was flush with cash, but it still intends to take possession of the jet this year despite its current woes, the source said.
Just in case you guys were wondering where your tax dollars are going...
-b0b
(...isn't even sure he can get angry at these guys anymore.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #61 - Jan 27
th
, 2009 at 11:04am
Quote:
The high-flying execs at Citigroup caved under pressure from President Obama and decided today to abandon plans for a luxurious new $50 million corporate jet from France.
ha!
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Reply #62 - Jan 27
th
, 2009 at 12:54pm
If Obama really wanted to do something he would take all the money away from them and sue them for misappropriation and fraud. How about the amount of 800 billion dollars just being "a number that was really high" and that was the only basis for the corporations asking for that much?
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #63 - Jan 27
th
, 2009 at 1:56pm
The truth behind that article was that they were selling two $27 million jets to purchase this single $50 million jet. They just don't include these things in the article so it makes headline news.
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Reply #64 - Jan 28
th
, 2009 at 11:54am
Although relevant and certainly worthy of mention, that doesn't excuse Citigroup's purchase. When you're depending on the taxpayer for the life of your business, you don't go out and buy a 50 million dollar toy, even if you sell two 27 million dollar toys to do it. Besides, I can pretty much guarantee their existing jets aren't going to net anything close to $27 million in this market.
Take a charter jet. Better yet, get on a 747 like everyone else. Do you know how many first-class tickets you can buy for $50 million?
-b0b
(...for crying out loud!)
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Reply #65 - Jan 28
th
, 2009 at 12:55pm
They did order the plane two years ago and would lose a bunch on the deposit. I'm not defending them, but I don't think we're going to get all the budget details from the news..
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Reply #66 - Jan 28
th
, 2009 at 2:45pm
Ironman wrote
on Jan 28
th
, 2009 at 12:55pm:
They did order the plane two years ago and would lose a bunch on the deposit.
I understand that, but I think it would be a justifiable loss, especially in light of the pounding their stock has taken since news of this first broke.
Citigroup should have sunk this deal in mid-2007 at the latest. I'm sure the deposit loss would have been significantly lower.
See, this is the problem with our government backing private companies. The whole country has the right to complain about Citi's spending practices because all of us are now stakeholders. If Citi wouldn't have gone on the public dole, none of us would have any right to complain about how Citi chooses to spend their money (unless we happen to be shareholders).
-b0b
(...thinks it is a bad situation all the way around.)
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Reply #67 - Jan 28
th
, 2009 at 4:03pm
I think the government fixing private companies problems is a bad idea period.
I know that people lose jobs, the economy suffers and all that. But giving the control of our private corporations over to the backing of the government is a long slippery slope indeed.
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #68 - Feb 9
th
, 2009 at 1:21pm
Since Obama is in neighboring Elkhart, Indiana today to push his retarded pork-laden "stimulus" bill, I thought it was a good time to share this dated but particularly poignant essay. Enjoy!
Quote:
The Cars and the Money
As a teenager I toured the Ford Assembly Plant in St. Louis (actually, in Hazelwood, a suburb) with my parents in 1949, the year after it opened. Mercury automobiles were being put together there, in a pageant fascinating to watch. From various directions, parts would arrive on conveyors and the workers would attach them to the slowly moving auto-to-be moving down the assembly line. Astonishingly, at the end of the line, a man got behind the wheel of this collection of pieces which less than an hour ago had been in this pile of parts or that, turned the key, and drove it away! I've visited other auto assembly-lines since then, always with the same feeling of awe when the completed vehicle moves off under its own power. It is reminiscent of a birth: commonplace and yet somehow wonderful and amazing, for all its ordinariness.
Ford has announced that it is going to close the Hazelwood plant in a few years, and the news, apparently unexpected, has caused quite a reaction in the St. Louis area. The plant employs about 2600 people. The union which represents them is understandably unhappy. It wants the plant kept open. The president of the local said, "We'll be working with the mayor, we'll be working with the governor and we'll be working with our senators."
The mayor of Hazelwood was stunned. "We have an opportunity to try and save the Ford plant and the almost 3,000 jobs," he said. He estimated the economic impact of the plant closing at about 418 million yearly.
The superintendent for business and technology of the school district was also dismayed. "Ford is our largest taxpayer. And when you lose your biggest taxpayer, it's a hardship on the district. Any time we lose assessed value, the tax rate has to be readjusted so we don't lose funds. The taxpayers will end up paying." Obviously, getting along with less funding is unthinkable, although one cannot help but wonder if a school district could exist without a "superintendent for business and technology!"
The executive director of North County Inc., an organization of community and business leaders, expressed her disappointment. "This loss will be felt at so many different levels, it is hard to fathom," she said. We're not just looking at the incredibly detrimental loss of jobs for the more than 2600 dedicated hard-working people at Ford, but also the economic impact on the state, St. Louis County, city of Hazelwood, and even the school district."
In Washington, the representative of the area in Congress worried, "It's going to wreak havoc on our local economy. I will be joining with others in this region to help in approaching Ford Motor Co. to see if we can do something about keeping the plant open." Congressman Gephardt declared that he had "great confidence" in Ford. He would work with Gov. Holden, County Executive Westfall, and the appropriate local and union officials--. "Additionally, I will work to ensure that the Labor Department does everything possible to provide retraining and employment programs for Ford's dislocated workers."
Missouri's unelected junior Senator waxed indignant. Missouri, she said, "had gone to great lengths over the years to help this plant succeed. I hope that the company will reverse this shortsighted decision."
A Ford spokesman said something relevant. "No amount of incentives can be sufficient if you have a facility without enough customers for its product," said Della DiPietro. Ah! The product!
The local political types seem to have forgotten something fundamental. The plant was not built to provide funds for education, or jobs for local workers, or taxes for this or that community. The plant was built to manufacture automobiles. It isn't a cash cow provided by Ford to be milked by the local plunderers under color of law; it's a factory to make cars. And if people do not wish to buy the cars, the factory has no reason to exist. Interestingly, the pressure is on Ford to retain its plant, making cars which people don't want to buy. None of the bureaucratic types interviewed suggested placing pressure on local citizens to buy Ford cars, or recommended that the workers accept less pay, or that customers and/or workers get tax rebates for buying or making automobiles there. The product is irrelevant, it's the revenue that counts. The politicians seem to have forgotten that the revenue, ultimately, is based upon people providing a useful good or service. Companies don't get their income by simply putting their hand out and demanding it, under threat of fine or imprisonment! They must actually produce something. There is a relationship, even if ignored by government, between prosperity and work.
Why aren't people buying the product? Well, consider that money may have something to do with it. Between the beginning and end of a model year, the purchasing power of the fiat may decline, requiring Ford to pay more for the same parts in December than it did in January. Of course, this means a rise in the price of the car; or, perhaps, a cut in the quality. Ford can raise prices from week to week, if necessary; the wages of the workers are fixed by contract, and cannot be raised so easily or quickly. Or people may buy foreign cars which they perceive as offering more for their money. Such cars may be "cheaper" to manufacture, in dollar terms, because of the exchange rates set by the banking fraternity between one scrip and another. Those rates are not set with the St. Louis car-worker in mind! If auto workers everywhere were paid in, say, gold or silver, the "cheap labor" often associated with foreign countries would quickly disappear. And, of course, Ford borrows money regularly. The money was created from nothing, at no cost, and with no expenditure of labor, by the bankers. Tremendous labor is required to repay, and the costs of borrowing are added to the cost of the car-comprising perhaps as a fourth of the sticker price. Short of defaulting on the "debt," there is no way that this percentage cannot increase, nor can the debt be paid without more borrowing, short of monetary collapse. More "dollars" for the same car, or the same number for a smaller one, or one of lesser quality.
To preserve confidence in its scrip, our government will let nothing stand in its way; certainly not the closing of an auto plant, or two, or five. If thirty-five thousand people are put out of work, better than a loss of confidence in the monopoly money.
-b0b
(...was just in Elkhart on Saturday.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #69 - Feb 10
th
, 2009 at 11:09am
It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. They keep this up there won't be a federal government, and who knows what happens to our money (debt) at that point.
let the banks fail, it was their irresponsibility many years ago that is causing this mess.
sigh. less talk on the web, more marching. (says the guy posting on a forum)
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Reply #70 - Feb 10
th
, 2009 at 12:19pm
MediaMaster wrote
on Feb 10
th
, 2009 at 11:09am:
sigh. less talk on the web, more marching. (says the guy posting on a forum)
You first!
Honestly, marching rarely solves anything. When is the last time you saw a "march" on DC do anything? Did the
Million Man March
or
Million Mom March
solve anything? Not really.
Besides, conservatives don't really march all that often. Unlike filthy hippies, we have jobs, families, and other things that prevent us from wasting a week walking around the capital.
-b0b
(...is just sayin'.)
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Reply #71 - Feb 10
th
, 2009 at 1:05pm
I think marching did help during the civil rights movement but now with govt agent provocaturs it's kind of hard not for a government boot licker to start something, flee, and get the peaceful protestors arrested.
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Reply #72 - Feb 10
th
, 2009 at 1:59pm
It will do something. I mean when you see CEO's driving in cars to DC or banks abandoning plans to buy a jet because of public outcry that is something. They are caving to "public pressure."
Which consists of media attention on the matter. They could have just gotten the jet anyway, who cares. But they wanted to "look good" to the people because in the end we are the consumer or depositor of their products. They don't want any black marks so we continue to put money in the bank and buy things.
So what happens when real pressure is put down in terms of massive marching or something? Who knows. There's a lot of criminals on wall street and in the government that need arresting. Won't happen till the ones in charge feel there is enough pressure and they have to give a little. A lot of pressure and they give a lot. At least, that's the logic. Heh, at this point some in charge don't even pay their taxes so we see how thats going to go.
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Reply #73 - Feb 10
th
, 2009 at 3:49pm
Yeah, but the government isn't selling anything, I don't think they respond to public outcry the same way a business would. Also, I think it is easy for people to see a march as a minority (perhaps crazy) view in contrast to a silent (rational?) majority, especially if everything is driven by the media. If I were an official I think I would respond better to a nicely written letter, if I were to read any.
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Reply #74 - Feb 10
th
, 2009 at 3:55pm
ya but people are filling the boxes (and inboxes) of senators. They had i think 300:1 ratio of people saying don't do a bailout but they went ahead and did it. and then they all got reelected haha.
This rebublican/democrat party system is brilliant. people identify with a side and then just bloody vote straight down party lines with no real research.
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Reply #75 - Feb 11
th
, 2009 at 8:04am
Quote:
But they wanted to "look good" to the people because in the end we are the consumer or depositor of their products.
But what happens when you replace the consumers with a govt body who bank rolls you? Then the govt becomes the consumer and anyone else doesn't really matter.
I think both of you make good points that I'd like to combine:
The government isn't selling anything, yet we don't kick out the people who are doing what the people don't want. We bring this yoke on us on purpose and all we have to do is shrug our shoulders and we'd be free from it.
Government representative became government AUTHORITIES. Police protect and serve became Us Vs. Them.
Business products became government handout establishments.
We have lost our way and now we stand at the precipice and we're either going to turn...or burn.
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Reply #76 - Feb 11
th
, 2009 at 9:05am
X wrote
on Feb 11
th
, 2009 at 8:04am:
The government isn't selling anything...
Sure it does, both figuratively and literally. Did you listen to any of the campaign promises that were thrown about by both parties like candy? "Vote for me, and I'll lower taxes on the poor!" "Elect me and I'll fix healthcare!" "Choose me and I'll get the economy back on track!"
Politicians whore themselves out with promises, and occasionally they even fulfill those promises. That's why we have things like welfare, private industry bailouts, and my personal favorite - the Earned Income Credit.
I hate to admit it, but America
wants
Socialism. The politicians promise it, and we elect them. We act surprised when they force it down our throats against our vocal opposition, but then we vote the same folks (or their identical twins) back into office.
The bailout is particularly troublesome. Opposition to the first bailout (TARP) was incredibly vocal, but the politicians passed the plan anyway. Now, the second bailout is twice as large and the opposition is much quieter. Why? We don't care. We've given up. The first time is an outrage, and second time is just "business as usual." The numbers are so incredibly large that we can't even fathom them. If $700 billion is okay, than $1.5 trillion is just another drop in the bucket, right?
-b0b
(...thinks America has a very short attention span.)
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Reply #77 - Feb 11
th
, 2009 at 10:23am
Here's a 15 year old Calvin and Hobbes comic strip that explains the economic crisis we live in today:
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #78 - Feb 13
th
, 2009 at 4:46pm
I think that comic only describes about 5% our economic crisis.
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Reply #79 - Feb 14
th
, 2009 at 2:34pm
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=88851
Quote:
As the Obama administration pushes through Congress its $800 billion deficit-spending economic stimulus plan, the American public is largely unaware that the true deficit of the federal government already is measured in trillions of dollars, and in fact its $65.5 trillion in total obligations exceeds the gross domestic product of the world.
Quote:
"Truthfully," Williams pointed out, "there is no Social Security 'lock-box.' There are no funds held in reserve today for Social Security and Medicare obligations that are earned each year.
It's only a matter of time until the public realizes that the government is truly bankrupt and no taxes are being held in reserve to pay in the future the Social Security and Medicare benefits taxpayers are earning today."
And then what?
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #80 - Feb 16
th
, 2009 at 12:56pm
hahaha
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Reply #81 - Feb 16
th
, 2009 at 4:01pm
We are earning that pay? I thought I was being forced to pay for other people and to a system that didn't care about me.
Whodda thunk?!
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #82 - Mar 6
th
, 2009 at 12:09am
There's just too much news to post for this thread. It's all very sobering to see people praying to the obamassiah still. You can still read the praise and see delighted looks of the media when they speak of him, as the country spends it's way into oblivion.
wee!
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #83 - Mar 19
th
, 2009 at 1:15am
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/03/18/business/fed.php
Quote:
The Federal Reserve sharply stepped up its efforts to bolster the economy on Wednesday, announcing that it would pump an extra $1 trillion into the financial system by purchasing Treasury bonds and mortgage securities.
Unbelievable. Our money will mean nothing if Bernake keeps this up. On the minor plus side, this should lower mortgage rates in the next month or 2 at a time im prolly gonna get a house. Now how long I get to stay in said house until our currency goes kaput, who knows.
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Reply #84 - Mar 19
th
, 2009 at 6:47am
In short, the Chinese weren't buying our debt, so the Federal Reserve did it for us.
-b0b
(...short term deflation, long term inflation!)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #85 - Mar 21
st
, 2009 at 3:36pm
Quote:
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy
out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another
person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to
anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody
else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work
because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other
half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is
going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of
any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."
Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931 - 2005
This has never been more true than it is today.
-b0b
(...thought he'd share that.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #86 - Mar 21
st
, 2009 at 5:32pm
I love that quote.
This is truly a dark day if obama follows through with this. Goodbye capitalism.
Hello communism.
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #87 - Mar 23
rd
, 2009 at 6:54pm
We all know the economy has gone to Hell in a hand-basket, but it can be quite difficult to figure out just how each piece of the "crisis" is interconnected. I came across this nifty five minute video that simply articulates the overall problem and how each component affects the other. It's a good watch!
http://vimeo.com/3261363
-b0b
(...came away a little bit smarter.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #88 - Mar 23
rd
, 2009 at 11:35pm
Very nice find bob! Now he needs to do one on what the government is doing to "fix" it by screwing the country over in the long term. he also needed to talk more about CDS, there's more to it than mere insurance against mortgages defaulting. Very cool introduction to the problem, though, i forwarded it around.
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #89 - May 3
rd
, 2009 at 8:12pm
Quote:
China has 'canceled US credit card': lawmaker
WASHINGTON (AFP) — China, wary of the troubled US economy, has already "canceled America's credit card" by cutting down purchases of debt, a US congressman said Thursday.
China has the world's largest foreign reserves, believed to be mostly in dollars, along with around 800 billion dollars in US Treasury bonds, more than any other country.
But Treasury Department data shows that investors in China have sharply curtailed their purchases of bonds in January and February.
Representative Mark Kirk, a member of the House Appropriations Committee and co-chair of a group of lawmakers promoting relations with Beijing, said China had "very legitimate" concerns about its investments.
"It would appear, quietly and with deference and politeness, that China has canceled America's credit card," Kirk told the Committee of 100, a Chinese-American group.
"I'm not sure too many people on Capitol Hill realize that this is now happening," he said.
The Republican lawmaker said that China was justified in concerns about returns from finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which were bailed out by the US government due to the financial crisis.
Kirk said he was the first member of Congress to tour the Bureau of Public Debt, which trades bonds, and was alarmed at how much debt was being bought by the US Federal Reserve due to absence of foreign investors.
"There will come a time where the lack of Chinese participation may have a significant impact," Kirk said.
"We should track that, because up until last month they were the number one provider of currency to the United States and now they're gone."
With China's economy also hit by the global economic crisis, Premier Wen Jiabao has openly voiced concern about the status of his country's investments in the United States.
China has also floated replacing the dollar as the key international currency with a basket of units bringing in the euro, sterling and yen.
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #90 - May 3
rd
, 2009 at 9:52pm
Yea this is not going well for bonds, tnx is already above 3. Bernake will continue to print money to buy treasuries. With all the upcoming treasury auctions, this won't be fun. Maybe congress will learn to stop spending what they don't have.
...then again maybe not.
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Reply #91 - May 3
rd
, 2009 at 10:30pm
MediaMaster wrote
on May 3
rd
, 2009 at 9:52pm:
Yea this is not going well for bonds, tnx is already above 3.
The stock market isn't going to be real happy about this either. It'll be interesting to see how the Dow reacts to this tomorrow.
-b0b
(...shrugs.)
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #92 - May 3
rd
, 2009 at 10:32pm
well judging by the markets reaction to news lately, id say up 300 points!
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #93 - May 6
th
, 2009 at 12:50am
Quote:
In a filing today with the SEC, GM announced that it would issue 60 billion new shares, in order to "pay off" debts to the government, its bondholders and the UAW. And since the government would end up being the majority owner, only the approval of the US Treasury would be needed.
As a result of the flood of new shares, existing shareholders, much as previously expected, would end up owning 1% of the pro forma equity, and assuming straight mathematic dilution, the shares which closed at $1.85 would be worth a little over 1 cent.
Specifically, the actions contemplated by the filing are as follows:
* Increase the number of authorized shares of GM common stock to 62 billion shares;
* Reduce the par value of GM common stock from $1 2/3 per share to $0.01 per share; and
* Effect a 1-for-100 reverse stock split of GM common stock, whereby each 100 shares of GM common stock registered in the name of a stockholder at the effective time of the reverse stock split will be converted into one share of GM common stock.
Why even invest anymore?
Also, the latest from the fed:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/treasury_department_issues
ha!
this is fun too:
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nation_ready_to_be_lied_to_about?utm_source...
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Re: Economic Retardation
Reply #94 - May 12
th
, 2009 at 4:47pm
Red highlights indicate the annual jump in tax receipts from tax month (April) For the first time since 83, April had a deficit. We were about 170 billion off from this time last year. Time to sell more Treasuries/print money! hooray, we're doomed.
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Reply #95 - May 12
th
, 2009 at 6:44pm
Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.
-b0b
(...shrugs.)
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