So in your way of thinking.

A person who does not "Honor thy mother and father" deserves the same punishment as someone who murder 300 children?

It doesn't really matter in the end.  In God's eyes, there is only one thing getting you into heaven, and the "amount" or "severity" of your sin isn't it.  God doesn't have some kind of huge scale that you step on to determine whether or not you've made the cut.

Homosexual or heterosexual, rapist or women's rights activist, if you don't accept Jesus as the Son of God and ask Him to save you from your sinful condition, you're going to Hell.  If you do accept Him, you're going to Heaven.

Don't get me wrong, there will be rewards and punishments handed out in accordance with the manner in which we lived our lives, but they are entirely secondary.

-b0b
(.../theology.)

Well then tell me Fatman...when should God allow anyone to accept His free gift?  If you wait to get your life perfect...you're going to be waiting a long time.  You have to remember...that a theif was the first person to heaven after Jesus.  I think the two theives on the cross show the true nature of God and His love and grace for us.  Two theives hang next to Jesus, they are both guilty.  One is still puffed up with anger and pride, the other is spiritually broken and sincere in his belief.  Jesus say, "Today you will be with me in paradise".  I think the greatest thing that could happen to a murder, rapist, ect. would be to become a Christian.  Becoming a Christon isn't like putting on a new shirt...it feels good for a while but later you forget you have it on.  Being a Christian changes you from the inside out.  I know of countless stories where murders have become Christians and have repented.  Lee Stroble tells of one in his book, "Case For Christ".  All of these men can't be faking it, esp. those on death row.  Becoming a Christian means God has shown you that you are a sinner, He breaks us down so that we are prideless at our conversion.  We embrace Christ as our Savior because we have no one else to turn to.  We recognize our need to be saved, a drowning man will reach for a lifesaver.  I don't see your problem with these people becoming Christians.  Should God not accept these people?  Does that mean He shouldn't accept you?  Or are your "enterence exams" written so it's ok that you pass.  God doesn't say you have to be perfect to accept Him, just that you are broken so that you realize you need Him.

Mat 9:10  And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
Mat 9:11  And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12  But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13  But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

X

The first thing to remember is that nobody "deserves" Heaven.  Not the holier-than-thou religious elite, and not the serial murderers.  We all stand equally undeserving before God.

If you look at Jesus' ministry, you'll see that he didn't spend much time hanging out with the religious intelligentsia (Pharisees, mostly).  He spent the majority of his time hanging out with thieves, whores, and other generally undesirable people.

One time, the Pharisees called him on it.  They said, "Hey, if you're the Son of God, why is it that you're eating dinner with these lowlifes?"  Jesus then related three parables, the most powerful of which is the parable of the prodigal son.

In that story, a rich landowner has two sons.  The younger "quits the family" by claiming his inheritance early and leaving for a foreign country.  He squanders everything he owns until he is penniless, cleaning up after pigs just to make enough money to eat.

He realizes he has seriously screwed up, and his father's servants have it ten times better than he does.  He decides to return home so he can beg his father for a job as a lowly servant.  Upon returning home, his father sees him, runs to him, and embraces him with open arms.  He won't even hear his son's request to be made a servant, but instead returns him to his original position as an heir to the family and slays a prime cow to celebrate with.

Now, here's the important part.  The older son has been working hard in the field all day.  When he returns home, he sees the commotion and realizes his brother has returned.  He complains to the father, basically saying what you're saying.  "I've worked hard all my life and you won't even give me a goat to celebrate with my friends.  However, when your other son returns after partying away his entire inheritance, you give him the best animal in the entire stockyard for his celebration."

The father pointed out this: "You shouldn't be upset.  Your brother had gone away, but has returned again.  What was lost is now found."

You and I have the position of the Pharisees and the older brother.  We sometimes think we're "more deserving" because we haven't killed anyone, haven't raped anyone, haven't molested anyone, etc.  If you're honest with yourself, though, I'm quite certain you'll find some areas in your life that you aren't too proud of.  A speaker once said, "If my innermost thoughts were open for examination, they would shame Hell."

The admission requirements for Heaven are steep.  Quite simply, they are perfection.  I'm not perfect, and I'm willing to step out on a limb and assume you're not perfect either, which is why Jesus comes into the equation.

Are you familiar with the "Roman Road"?  It's a short set of scriptures found in the book of Romans that addresses your standpoint perfectly.  Romans 1:19-20, 23, and 10 address the question of our standing before God prior to salvation.  I'll paraphrase for ease of reading...

Quote:


Again, nobody deserves Heaven.  Not you, not me, and not the lowliest lowlife scum in the prison of your choice.  Why?  Take another step on the Roman Road in Romans 5:12 and you'll see the answer.

Quote:


Adam screwed it up.  I could get into a great deal of theology here and discuss Adam's role as our seminal and federal father and exactly how that obligates us to carrying his burden, but suffice it to say that Adam screwed up and we're still paying for it.

You see, that is what is keeping us out of heaven, and that is why Jesus had to die on the cross for us. 

Here's another question for you to think about.  Which sins did Jesus die for?  Did he only die for the occassional lie, the binge drinking session, the pre-marital sex, etc?  Did he not die for rape?  Did he not die for child molestation?  Did he not take the sin of murder upon his shoulders at Calvary?  I contend that he did.  He took upon himself every single sin that had ever occurred, was occurring, or ever would occur.  Including rape.  Including murder.  Including child molestation.

We are no better than the Pharisees when point out a specific sin and say, "They're too lost for God to save them."  Moreover, we're limiting God's power and Jesus's saving grace when we say He can't do something.  Don't limit God!

One last thought.  A saved person is completely incapable of escaping their salvation.  There is nothing you can do to renounce or lose your salvation.  The Bible is very clear about that.  One thing to remember is that "your" salvation isn't really yours at all.  God saves you, and "your" salvation belongs to Him.  Here's what Jesus had to say about the matter, paraphrased for clarity...

John 10:29 - God gave the saved people to me, and He is greater than anyone else.  No man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Nobody.  Not even you can remove yourself from God's grace.  It's a permanent, irrevocable decision and God isn't going to let you out of your obligation once you've made your commitment.  Not even if you kill someone.

-b0b
(...was slightly long winded.)

I understand what the bible says bob.  And I understand it's lessons and meanings when it tries to explain God's stance on how you get into heaven.

I'm saying I disagree with it.

I'm sorry I have a hard time believing in a god that would except a child molester into Heaven simply because they repent.  While a man who sleeps with another mans wife and doesn't regret it goes to hell because he refuses to be sorry over it.  Molesting a child is an unforgiveable act in my eyes.  I fail to see how a true God could forgive such a crime.

You say no man is perfect and therefore cannot get into Heaven without admitting as much to Jesus.  I say a man who is evil deserves to go to hell.  No matter how sorry he is about it.  It's too easy a way out, and I can't wrap my morales around it.

Simple truth, and you probably won't change my mind.

Quote:


That pretty much sums up my problem with the bible.  I don't agree with God.  And I guess the reason I have a hard time believing is because I can't view God as perfect when I disagree with one of his base beliefs.

I know yall have prolly read the Jack Handey quotes from SNL but hey, they are gold, heres some more.

http://quotes.prolix.nu/Humor/Jack_Handey

If you ever fall off the Sears Tower, just go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will try to catch you because, hey, free dummy.

-

If I ever went to war, instead of throwing a grenade, I'd throw one of those small pumpkins. Then maybe my enemy would pick up the pumpkin and think about the futility of war. And that would give me the time I need to hit him with a real grenade.

-

Sometimes when I feel like killing someone, I do a little trick to calm myself down. I'll go over to the persons house and ring the doorbell. When the person comes to the door, I'm gone, but you know what I've left on the porch? A jack-o-lantern with a knife stuck in the side of its head with a note that says "You." After that I usually feel a lot better, and no harm done.

-

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

-

Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone’s neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing?

-

Ok I'm done, they are all funny. 

I have a theory that one day, MySpace will own everyone's soul.



and we all thought the anti-christ would come in the form of a human.





Cait
   (...prefers not to do house chores )