The Geek Crew - Science Schmience Thread

Ironman

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #420 - Feb 17^th, 2009 at 9:20am

I am going to use some scripture because the Bible is the foundation of the creation argument. The logical choice between creation and other worldviews depends on which one makes sense of the evidence. Forcing the Bible out of the argument is like forcing an evolutionist to discard the mechanism of natural selection.

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For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. 1 Cor 3:19

There is no reason to think that we can discover all truth through human reasoning. But we do know that the Bible agrees with what we understand in the world. Do you disagree with me on this?

Quote:

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. - Romans 1:20

What proof would you accept?

If you are claiming that creation is wrong simply because a different way might exist (without even considering its validity!) then you are dismissing God's Word on a whim. right?

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The_Fat_Man

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #421 - Feb 17^th, 2009 at 3:05pm

Like I said, I'm not dismissing God's word on a whim.

I'm dismissing it for the same reason I dismiss evolution. THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF.

I'm not saying God DIDN'T create the world, I'd just like to see some proof. My mind doesn't work like yours, when someone says "If I drop this ball its going to fall to the ground." I ask them to drop it and show me the proof.

I've never seen any concrete proof that God didn't create the world, but lack of evidence against does not prove a theory correct.

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Ironman

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #422 - Feb 17^th, 2009 at 3:46pm

Noah's Flood - rock layers
Adam & Eve - genetic variability and rapid accumulation of mutations (relativity short time ago)
Existence of God - Consistency of natural laws

Its technically right to say that science can only disprove things. It's an important part of the scientific method, otherwise you would always be "affirming the consequent". You could accurately say that there are no proven theories in science, only ones that haven't been falsified yet.

Maybe you could give an example of something that would be proof?

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The_Fat_Man

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #423 - Feb 20^th, 2009 at 1:33pm

You can use science to prove theories, not sure what you are talking about.

For example, if I say Substance A will dissolve Substance B, and I pour A on B and it dissolves. Then I just proved my theory.

Granted that was a pretty basic statement. I guess the proof I want is something I can see for myself.

My main problem with Creation is that there really isn't any way to prove it unless I can walk up and MEET this supreme being that supposedly magically created the world and see him do the likes again.

That is my problem with blind faith. It's just a way for humans to cope with the fact that sooner or later we die and that is the end. The rest of religion is just a way for the Church to justify God's supreme power so that they can create the spin they need to keep power.

I'd say it as likely that Aliens created the Earth and life on it as it is that "God" did.

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Ironman

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #424 - Feb 20^th, 2009 at 4:39pm

This point isn't really the crux of the issue but, logically...

Affirming the consequent
If p then q (p⊃q)
q is true (q)
Therefore p (∴ p)

An example might help.
If I eat a whole pizza, then I will be full
I am full
Therefore I ate a whole pizza. (obviously false)

But, your analogy doesn't work, because it is missing a theory and has no reason for its prediction.

I think A will dissolve B
A dissolves B
Therefore, I am right? (about what?)

Supposing you have a theory that A and B are both comprised of polar molecules, so that B is dissolved, then you have evidence to support that. But, you haven't proved anything, because the same result would occur if they were both non-polar, or if one or both of them was a detergent. This is the error of "affirming the consequent" (assuming an affirmed prediction as proof). Historical science, which is not repeatable for observation, is especially problematic.

If you are saying that you only believe things that you can see, then obviously major problems arise. An obvious one is responding to people on a forum, you don't see them, why bother. (Luke 16:27-31)

I don't know why you say faith is only a way for humans to cope with death. For someone who says evolution isn't true, you have taken a page right out of the their book.

Also, you use the term, God's supreme power, in a way to assume that it exists, and that people spin it. I am confused, does God have supreme power or not?

I've given several unrebutted examples for evidence for the truth of God's Word, why would you say aliens are just as likely, when there is no evidence for aliens?

Faith in agnosticism is just as blind as others, I think...

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The_Fat_Man

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #425 - Feb 21^st, 2009 at 1:52am

I don't know what you're going on about polar molecules and shit for, I have no idea what you are speaking of, it was a basic example of proof, not an actual hypothesis =p

I don't see how taking a stance against Creationism makes me pro-Evolution. I'm simply stating I think man has no idea how they came about, and are making random stabs in the dark and leaps of faith to explain it.

I haven't seen any evidence of Creationism listed. You stated such things as geological strata lairs. This simply points towards the Earth not being 5 billion (Or whatever it is) years old, it doesn't prove God created it, and to assume so is again, a leap of faith. Unless you can show me where he stamped his name in it somewhere.

And to answer you're question, if God does exist, I don't think he has supreme power no.

At least I would hope he doesn't. An awful lot of pretty horrible things happen in this world and I would hope God wouldn't be so cold to allow them to happen if he did have supreme power.

My biggest problem with Creationism is this. Let's just say God DID create all that exists. Why? What reason would he have to do so.

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spanky

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #426 - Feb 21^st, 2009 at 12:50pm

Quote:

I don't see how taking a stance against Creationism makes me pro-Evolution.

It is a proven fact that Creationism and Evolution are the only two possible theories. If you try and think of a third you would be a retard and should be shot. Are you a retard?

Quote:

An awful lot of pretty horrible things happen in this world and I would hope God wouldn't be so cold to allow them to happen if he did have supreme power.

A great quote from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, "God didn't do that, you did!" That is exactly how I feel. People do horrible things, take responsibility and don't say well God (or the devil) made me do it.

I am going to take heat for this...but I really think churches are trying for power, God just wants you to live a good life. To me there is a very big difference between God's word and the churches word.

Quote:

Unless you can show me where he stamped his name in it somewhere.

Wes has a point. If you went though the trouble of making the earth wouldn't you sign it?

Quote:

Let's just say God DID create all that exists. Why? What reason would he have to do so.

You never wanted an ant farm?

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b0b

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #427 - Feb 21^st, 2009 at 3:21pm

The_Fat_Man wrote on Feb 21^st, 2009 at 1:52am:

...if God does exist, I don't think he has supreme power no.

At least I would hope he doesn't. An awful lot of pretty horrible things happen in this world and I would hope God wouldn't be so cold to allow them to happen if he did have supreme power.

Here's a story I heard long ago that seemed to sum up my belief on the subject...

Quote:

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects:

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: “I don’t believe that God exists.”

“Why do you say that?” asked the customer.

“Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn’t exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can’t imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things.”

The customer thought for a moment, but didn’t respond because he didn’t want to start an argument.

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: “You know what? Barbers do not exist.”

“How can you say that?” asked the surprised barber. “I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!”

“No!” the customer exclaimed. “Barbers don’t exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.”

“Ah, but barbers DO exist! That’s what happens when people do not come to me.”

“Exactly!” affirmed the customer.

God gave us a characteristic that differentiates us from every other creature in existence: free will. If he stepped in and protected us from one another or from the consequences of our own sin, that would defeat the purpose in bestowing us with that incredible trait.

Free will is not only our most defining characteristic, but it is also the trait that endears us most to God. He could have created automatons that would simply serve him because they were "programmed" to do so, but would that really bring him any glory? Of course not. He is glorified when we choose to serve him.

Now that I'm married, I've discovered a new outlook on the situation. It has become almost habitual for me to tell my wife that I love her, and the words themselves don't have the same impact they once did. If it is automatic, it is meaningless. However, from time to time I'll sacrifice something I want for something she wants (time, money, whatever) because I love her so very much. That has an impact, because it is done out of love and sacrifice, not out of habit.

Make any sense?

-b0b
(...shrugs.)

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The_Fat_Man Wootzor von Leetenhaxor FTP Server Offline Grand High Overlard Posts: 910 Colorado Springs, Colorado Gender:	Re: Science Schmience Thread Reply #428 - Feb 22^nd, 2009 at 1:48am A child has free will too. But if he goes over and stabs another kid in the eye with an ink pen, I'd beat his ass for it. I wouldn't sit back and say, "Well, he choose that path, if he wanted to know better he'd have asked me first. Oh well."
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Ironman

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #429 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 2:18pm

Maybe we should open a theology thread

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I don't know what you're going on about polar molecules and shit for, I have no idea what you are speaking of, it was a basic example of proof, not an actual hypothesis =p

Well, I was saying that since you didn't make a hypothesis, you didn't prove anything in your example. (Polarity determines which things dissolve. Similar polarities will dissolve. For example, oil is nonpolar and water is polar, so they don't mix.)

Quote:

I haven't seen any evidence of Creationism listed. You stated such things as geological strata lairs. This simply points towards the Earth not being 5 billion (Or whatever it is) years old, it doesn't prove God created it, and to assume so is again, a leap of faith. Unless you can show me where he stamped his name in it somewhere.

The couple things I mentioned are important because they are evidences predicted by the Bible. If I have a hypothesis that a giant worldwide flood came through here a few thousand years ago and I find rock layers to match my prediction, then I have evidence to support my hypothesis. You are right, I haven't proved it, because that would be making the error of "affirming the consequent", as I tried to say before. That is just how the scientific method works. But, since you seem to disregard this type of evidence, I wonder if you can give me any kind of example that you might accept as "proof" that biblical creation is true.. obviously excluding things like writing His name on it or delivering a personal revelation to you.

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b0b GeekCrew Administrator FTP Server Offline The revolution will not be televised. Posts: 7464 Battle Creek, Michigan Gender:	Re: Science Schmience Thread Reply #430 - Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 9:38pm Ironman wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2009 at 2:18pm: Maybe we should open a theology thread Be our guest! By the way, congratulations on your 100th post. It only took you 3½ years! -b0b (...hopes you'll aspire to his level of post-whoredom someday.)
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MediaMaster

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Re: Science Schmience Thread
Reply #431 - Jun 14^th, 2009 at 2:56pm

Argentine glacier advances despite global warming

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090614/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_argentina_glacier

Argentina's Perito Moreno glacier is one of only a few ice fields worldwide that have withstood rising global temperatures.

Nourished by Andean snowmelt, the glacier constantly grows even as it spawns icebergs the size of apartment buildings into a frigid lake, maintaining a nearly perfect equilibrium since measurements began more than a century ago.

"We're not sure why this happens," said Andres Rivera, a glacialist with the Center for Scientific Studies in Valdivia, Chile. "But not all glaciers respond equally to climate change."

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"Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other."&&&&John Adams&&

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X Post Whore FTP Server Offline Truth Is Treason, In The Empire Of Lies Posts: 3903 Gender:	Re: Science Schmience Thread Reply #432 - Jun 14^th, 2009 at 10:09pm Ice + Hot = Water....ALWAYS! Ice+Water+Cold = More Ice....Usually...OH MY SCIENCE!!! GLOBAL COOLING HAS BEGUN! kneels in the sand and pound it with my fist...snot bubbling from my nostrils, tears streaming down my face You did it...you bastards....you killed global warming! X (...is who the Oscar goes to)
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b0b GeekCrew Administrator FTP Server Offline The revolution will not be televised. Posts: 7464 Battle Creek, Michigan Gender:	Re: Science Schmience Thread Reply #433 - Jun 15^th, 2009 at 6:13am Remember, it's not global warming anymore! It's global climate change! More ice is a sign of climate change, which is proof of the greenhouse effect... or something! -b0b (...just keep chanting it!)
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MediaMaster GeekCrew Administrator FTP Server Offline Holy Xenu! Posts: 1884 Detroit Gender:	Re: Science Schmience Thread Reply #434 - Jun 26^th, 2009 at 10:24pm ....Someone tell me how lawmakers can vote on something when they havent even read the entire bill. comon now democracy, dont give up just yet!
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